Mr. KillJoy wrote:

View of the cliffs where the Via Ferrata is from my kitchen window

^^^ very nice view. And excellent TR as well. Had never heard of via ferrata before, nor the word verticality.

I had never heard of it either. Nice TR. I am not holding my breath for these types of routes to be put into "the safety country" nor do I see it taking off in the "litigation country" so it will probably stay a Eurpoe thing.

You two have never heard of it? I guess if you have not spent much time in EU that makes sense.

It will never come to Japan, and if it did, the Japanese would fuck it up.

Yah, I only ever went to the EU in winter, which I guess isn't the season for it. I agree it will never come here or, if it did, it would be fukked up but given the interest in summer mountain hiking I would guess it would be huge here if someone did it right.

looks like a good day out. nice weather to start and a good day in the mountains. the view from up there looks great.

actually, i don't think they make fish any smaller than Larry. glad you caught a good one. I saw some huuuge brown and rainbow trout in a little fish farm on the Himekawa in Hakuba on Sunday. they were like 30x Larry. And they are call Shinshu Salmon with makes me think there might be some trout fishing around Hakuba, although i haven't looked into it.

On that day I caught 6 which is the legal limit on the public domain and I stopped.
This summer I caught one which was 1.3Kg. I got my son to help me pull it out, he was really excited by the whole thing.
In the water I saw one which was about 1.5Kg but I left it alone (I have a couple pics somewhere) and saw another 2 which must have been close to 2 Kgs.
Never heard of Shinsu Salmon, sounds interesting. Trout fishing is everywhere in Japan, and the season licence is usually cheap.
Larry might have been small but he had the looks

As for Via Ferrata, I think it really adds diversity to the whole gamut of activities a town has to offer during the summer. If one of the local tourism offices in either hakuba/yuzawa/Minakami were to equip some of their local cliffs and did it right, it would be a huge attraction for many people, not to mention the publicity they would get from setting-up the first via ferrata in Japan. But it means people have to think outside the established box and be pro-active. I am sure it will come to Japan eventually, in what form though remains to be seen. The investment itself is pretty cheap as well, just requires some qualified man-power to bolt the stuff into the cliff and then maintain it once in a while. I am looking forward to the day when the first Japanese Via opens.

Here's Larry's Grandmother:

I left it alone as it was diseased (you can see some white spots on the head).

NM - I should have qualified summer. No Via Ferret (or what ever it is called) in winter at all.

I fixed that one for you. No cliffs here, just compacted gravel.

More practical is that it is Borneo jungle up until about 2200m and the approach walk for some Ferret would take the average person half a day.

Perhaps behind Kaerazu would have some fun [very] short routes, but that is a full day walk for most people, at least no time for an afternoon return trip.

This would work well, but the hike down may be more challenging than the Ferret up. Not strictly in town either, so the on-your-doorstep popular convenience of Europe would be missing.

good points about the Borneo Jungle and the approach time. You do not need 500m of vertical sheer cliffs for a via ferrata, some are as small as 50m of vert as an intro spot for children, etc. Some of the shorter Via Ferrate are the most aerial and athletic ones. But you are right, most of them in France (at least near my hometown) are within a 1h approach hike. Some do require 1/2 day hike for an approach but not the most common ones. I can think of some spot in Yuzawa where you could set a via with some good vert and not too much of an approach pretty easily, so surely Haks must have some similar spots. Minakami would be even easier and have a truckload of routes to choose from.

I have a feeling that within 5 years somebody will set one up somewhere and it will then take off in Japan as a sport and pop-up everywhere. There are some ferrate in Canada and the US but not many. Seems France has the most followed by Italy. The US seems to have some at Half Dome (did not about that until today), Nelson Rocks and a few other places. There seems to be one in Whistler, but it is private access and you need to pay a guided tour to have access.

Serious, Hakuba is the rock climbing armpit of the world, despite what some websites might hype.

You could put some VF routes onto Tateyama (no, not the Tateyama you are thinking about, the one 15 minutes drive from Hakuba). But how would that go down with the few climbers who use that rock? There's other small stuff around, but again, it would interfere with existing climbers.

Hakuba just is not the town for it.

That's interesting, I did not realize the limitations at Haks. You for sure do not want to take an existing climbing route and turn it into a VF. That would just rightfully enrage climbers and create bad vibes. In France the VF were set-up in areas that were not prime climbing spots to avoid conflicts. Thankfully there are loads of spots to choose from. I think there is VF that is very close to a classic climbing route near my hometown. Both sides respect each other and behave properly, I have never heard of problems (does not mean it has not happened) between the guys who do VF and regular climbers. Actually regular climbers do enjoy VFs as well and many of them use them for conditionning. Some even "free climb" the VFs without any gear as practice which is actually one of the main source of accidents on VFs (the other one being people using regular climbing equipment on VFs that breaks when a fall occurs due to much higher loads on VFs then regular climbing). When we climbed our VF, we came accross 2 guys "free-climbing" it. One was doing it pretty much every morning before going to work...

"One was doing it pretty much every morning before going to work..."

Lucky guy. I wish it could happen here.

personally i would be very much against a VF structure going in on any meaningful piece of rock. I think what they've done to Tsurugi (and even Karamatsu) with all the chains and spray paint is completely fucked up. Tsurugi would be so much more pleasant if you were forced to protect it naturally and do a little route finding. The Japanese are already bolt-happy as it is.

I believe the experience you get when you dig up all the beta, get a little lost, leave the rock clean, and get home in one piece is 1000x better than climbing what is effectively a ladder and routefinding is non-existent. I believe we need that opportunity in place for future generations as well.

Somebody somewhere in Japan thought paving rivers was a good idea. How do you undo that?

If you have enough rock, a surplus of rock, then route some with VF. Only then. That does not describe Japan.

arn't there fixed ladders on Everest?

Can almost smell the summer air of the south of france... I must admit I never knew of VF, looks just right for a lazy climber like me (but yeah the chains on tsurugi are a shame).

i haven't been. but i think those ladders / like the fixed lines are rigged for the season. i don't think they are "permanent" structures.

Personally I would be happy if there were some VF in Japan and would be using them, but I also understand Pinky's stance. At the end of the day it is probably about striking the right balance as you do not want to turn the VF into shibuya nor do you want to invade existing climbing spots. I never heard climbers complain about the VF in France, but I did not realize the lack of suitable spots in Japan. So if those spots are already climbing routes they should be left as such and the climbers left in peace.

As for chains, it is all subjective as to what is acceptable level of equipment/grooming and where you draw the line can be very subjective. I am sure that a 70 yo retiree who does not have Pinky's forearms will appreciate the help. If we do not want any chains on the mountain, then how about not maintaining the hiking trails to make it more of a "true" experience with some bush-whacking involved in the process? Then how about walking to the trail head instead of taking your car? etc... A bit extreme examples, I know.

Everest has some cables bolted in to help climbers now (especially gettting down one specific treacherous spot) at the top. They maintain it there, it is not a one off thing.

In terms of route finding, VF have that has well albeit less than in regular rock-climbing. It's not like you're going up stairs the whole way, it is not equipped everywhere except for the cable for safety. They are rated from Easy to ED and that depends on the amount of equipment, the difficulty of the route, etc... In some VFs you have to pass some overhangs or some gnarly sections without any steps/ladders. Once again, there is a mix of difficulty available. I actually saw a video of a guy falling off a VF which shows that it is not all a piece of cake as the section he falls off has no equipment except for the cable that eventually stops him from falling to his death. Will look for it and post it later.

As for the lack of rocks in Japan, we need some banks to start securitizing them, sell them to chinese/autralian investors and then get NM to sell some vol products on them

Mr. KillJoy wrote:

NM to sell some vol products on them

KoM sells vol, not NM.

my bad

ok, do not know the rating of that VF, but here it is:

http://vimeo.com/2860656